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From Palmpedia

Contents 1 Start discussion here 2 Changes in Palmbox 3 You're Right --- Right is Better 4 SI 5 Continent

Start discussion here

I think it is better to discuss about the Palmbox here. --Ldgarcia27 20:19, 16 June 2007 (PDT)

• Luis, I have already left you a response on your TalkPage, before I saw this. I'll look into this further in a few days. It's a little "over my head," but I want to learn. :-) Dypsisdean 12:49, 17 June 2007 (PDT)

Changes in Palmbox

Dean, I made new changes to the Palmbox according to your suggestions.

• I removed the binomial_name, because I agree it is redundant.
• The binomial_authority field was renamed for taxonomist.
• The title of the box is Other information, but don't know if another title should go instead.
• The common names subsection is now in the bottom of the box.

I think the division, class, etc... are not essential, but they are a good reference point for an user that doesn't know about the scientific classification and is reading an article for the first time.
Take a look at the Raphia taedigera page to see the example. Please let me know what you think.
--Ldgarcia27 21:10, 27 June 2007 (PDT)

• Luis, Please hold off on adding any more boxes at this time. I believe this will be a very important addition to each palm page and to Palmpedia as a whole, and we need to get it right the first time. Let me give it some more thought, and you do the same. My thoughts at this point are:
  
• 1) We should use a standard photo for the photo in each box. One that is as near as possible to a shot of the whole palm. In other words, the photo we have that best represents the overall appearance of the palm for people to use for ID purposes.
• 2) Perhaps the "heading" could have the complete binomial and the taxonomist reference there as well, in italics as I usually see them, don't I?
• 3) Maybe this box could be more of a quick reference guide with size (trunk diameter, height), exposure (understory, emergent, full sun, etc.), cold hardiness (based on the SZS), etc. That way someone could quickly look and, for example, see the palm they were thinking about growing is a fairly large, understory, tropical palm, and determine that is not meant for their garden. Maybe add "forms" green/blue, entire leaf/pinnate, suckering/solitary, etc. Maybe the native continent. Just a bunch of thoughts I'm throwing out.........
• 4) I still think it's too repetitive to have the same identical division, class, order on a few thousand pages, just for a first time reader.

But as I said, let me think a little more. Please give me your feedback. How hard would it be to have an outline around it like the wikipedia taxobox has? Dypsisdean 00:23, 28 June 2007 (PDT)

Hi Dean,

I will create the Palmbox version 2.
This should have:
-Morphology subsection
-Border
-Hardiness zone
-Native continent (with automatic map)
I have already know how to do it, but I need some time. Do you want any other feature in special?
Also I would like to ask what info would you like in the Scientific classification subsection. Right now I am thinking on Genus, Species and Subspecies(if any). Let me know what you think. :) --Ldgarcia27 20:05, 28 June 2007 (PDT)

• Luis, For the top heading --- can there be room for the binomial and the taxonomist notation? Maybe the taxonomist is unnecessary. I don't pay much attention to it, and it's a lot more work, but it looks more official and scientific. But there is a reason I would like to get the full name to appear there. The Palm Page, as it is now, only has the name like D. lutescens. So people Googling for Dypsis lutescens do not see it. The more references we have to the full name, the more likely search engines will refer to our site when searching for a specific apecies. Most people have found PalmTalk by Googling for a species name. So we need to keep that in mind. I didn't think of that when I set up the main index.
• The map is a nice idea. Eye candy never hurts. :-) I saw your thread on palm heights on PalmTalk. That's what gave me the idea of a section on size in the PalmBox. Do you plan on collecting that data anyway? I don't want the PalmBox to get too busy or complicated, but a quick reference with a good pic, the size, hardiness, and exposure (sun/shade) would be useful for new growers. IMO. I think most people doing research on the web are getting info to find out if they can grow a specific palm, so that is why I like to have a lot of cultural information. I think genus, species, and subspecies is enough. I am wondering how to handle all the Dypsis where we do not have a species name yet. Same for some other genera like Calyptrocalyx. Maybe genus, species listed as "sp." and the space for subspecies could be the temporary name like 'Orange Crush.' I'm still "thinking out loud." Do you think size and exposure will be too much info to try and squeeze in? It will be in the description in more detail, but it might be nice to have the quick reference. Ideas??? BTW, the hybrid box is a good idea as well. But let's concentrate on one task at a time. :-)

• Dean, I have a lot done by now. Just need time to add the automatic image of the continent (because it implies making another template specialized for that) and some other stuff. The Palmbox 2.0 is been designed with a more friendly architecture so it will be easier to update. Yes, the height topic at Palmtalk was getting some feedback, because I need info for designing the database of an application I am planning since a lot ago.

The idea on adding sp. on unknown Dypsis is good, I will add a cultivar space that can be used instead of subspecies in those special cases. Maybe by Saturday or Friday when I have more time I can finish the last things and send you a preview. :) --Ldgarcia27 22:03, 28 June 2007 (PDT)

• I forgot to add that the cultural info as exposure and size are great. They would not be any problem.
• Luis, Please don't feel in any hurry. I have plenty to keep my hands full. Dypsisdean 22:22, 28 June 2007 (PDT)

• Hi Dean, I finished the Palmbox 2.0 :). I put in all the features you wanted. I created some documentation here. You can see a working example here Please let me know what you think.--Ldgarcia27 09:54, 30 June 2007 (PDT)
• Great job Luis --- Thanks for all the work, it looks great. I am asking a few others for their input. The one thing I would like (I think) is to have the full name in the "Heading" at the top, instead of "Quick Reference." As I explained before, this is due mainly to the way search engines work. The more we can get the full name (Dypsis decipiens) as opposed to an abreviation (D. decipiens), to appear on the page, the more relevent a search will be when someone Googles Dypsis decipiens. Nobody really searches for "D. decipiens." So we need to have the full name appear on the page, and that is a good place to put it. And if we have the scientific binomial there, we don't need to repeat it below. Do you think we could have it so the binomial would be in two rows, with the genus on top and species underneath. (Without the words 'genus' and 'species'), because otherwise the names would be too long, I think. I am also considering having the box on the left side of the page. That way the name and photo would be the first thing noticed. In addition, since all photos posted default to the right side, it may be easier in the long run to have most of the other photos stay on the right.
• The documentation you provided is excellent. The map, and the way you set it up, is very nice. And I like the idea of synonyms. It looks more professional with the outline, as well. And having links in there for definitions, etc. is a nice touch. I know this took a lot of thought and work, so thank you very much.
• I'm having a little trouble figuring out how to set up the cold hardiness zones, etc. You and I don't have to worry about all that stuff (thankfully), but having lived in California I know it is crucial information for everyone there and in many other parts of the world. So I will devote more time to it so we will have some info to plug in to the Palmbox. Dypsisdean 12:50, 30 June 2007 (PDT)
• Luis, I tried saving you some trouble and moved the Palmbox to the left. However, I see there is some "margin" syntax that would need to be made as well, and I didn't want to mess things up. But I did get to see what it would kind of look like. And I think the left looks better. Tell me what you think. BTW --- I noticed there is one little piece of outline missing in the lower right. Dypsisdean 13:27, 30 June 2007 (PDT)

• Hi Dean,

I already fixed the header, is better not to take out the genus and species words because it would make the scientific classification subsection incomplete. I think the palmbox in the right is more noticeable, I have seen that many of the ads on webpages are on right mainly because of this. Just in case, I will try to find how to fix it to make it look fine on the left. When you need to add the hardiness details let me know. --Ldgarcia27 15:04, 30 June 2007 (PDT)

• Luis, Looks good!!! The wiki already has a predetermined space under the navigation menu on the left of each page specifically for advertising. The Navigation, Search, and Toolbox menus will always stay where they are, so if the Palmbox were on the left it would be the "Gateway" to the page, always next to those menus. I was thinking it would be the first thing people would read, and see the heading with the full name and recognizable photo.
• I changed the 'float' parameter to "float:left;' and the box moved over to the left just fine. However, if you do that you will see there is no margin between the text and the box. I realize this may be complicated since all the sections may need 'padding' or something. But you will see if you make that edit, then there appears to be 'padding' on the left side of the box now for a margin. Whatever puts that margin there could maybe easily swithced or copied over. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. If it will take a lot of editing, hold off for now. I could very well change my mind on that. Oh, and when I was talking about eliminating the genus and species, I was talking about eliminating the whole section of Scientific classification since we already have the full name in the Heading now. I just thought with the addition of the other sub-sections it was getting too "busy." Again, thanks for all the hard work. When this is done and standardized it should give the pages a lot of needed structure. Dypsisdean 20:37, 30 June 2007 (PDT)

You're Right --- Right is Better

Luis, After thinking it over, I think the right hand side is better. That way the "graphics" are on the left and right and are split up with the text in the middle. I hope you haven't worked too much on switching it. I'm still thinking the Scientific Name could go though, and maybe making the text in the heading a little larger. Thanks again.

• Hi Dean, your welcome. I am learning and enjoying a lot working on the Palmbox. I think that the Scientific classification subsection should be kept because it is important for palms with a subspecies or a cultivar (for example the unknown Dypsis). It would help visitors identify the classification differences for example in the Dypsis ambositrae and its cultivar. Do you want to add any more to any subsection? Maybe the sex of the palm tree (monoecious, dioecious, hermaphrodite)??? I read your PM @ palmtalk, I already uploaded the picture ( here) and added some info on that palm.
• Luis, for now I think any more info can be covered in the text part of the page. We don't want the box so 'busy' that people skim it too quickly. Dypsisdean 19:20, 6 July 2007 (PDT)
• Luis, I had an idea that came from my discussions on the Species Zone Scale. We are thinking about some icons to make a point about culture requirements. Like a small red/blue thermometer for heat/cool loving palms, a sun for sun lovers, a sun with a cloud for partial sun, and a cloud for shade lovers. What do you think about that for the Palmbox for exposure and/or watering. A little cloud with rain for water lovers. A sun for full sun. A red drop for warm humid, a blue drop for cooler oceanic palms, a small gif for solitary, a small gif for suckering. Just let me know if you think it is a worthwhile idea. We may be doing it for the SZS so it might be good to use the same symbols if you like the idea. Dypsisdean 19:29, 6 July 2007 (PDT)

• Hi Dean, I think it is a cool idea. Althought a help page explaining the icons should be made. I will wait for the icons to be uploaded, then I will modify the Palmbox according to them. Having icons, in fact, is more suitable for a quick reference box. --Ldgarcia27 14:19, 7 July 2007 (PDT)

• Luis, I haven't given up on this idea. However, there are a few problems and concerns. The problem with .gifs in the wiki is that they all link to the "image page" for that .gif. It is apparently difficult to get a .gif image to link to somthing else other than it's own page. I did some research and there is a lot of discussion about this, and apparently some ways to do it, but none are simple.
• And I think it's important to have a link from the Palmbox to the Survivability Index data for the particular palm. That is because the SI will not have an index of it's own since they are not listed alphabeticaly or any other indexed way. So if a person wishes the detailed hardiness info on a particular palm, they will need ot go to the PalmPage first and then click on the link to the SI data for that palm. If we have .gifs in there, people will be clicking on them and get directed to the image page for the .gif. This will be confusing for newcomers. I hope you understand what I mean. Dypsisdean 12:54, 5 August 2007 (PDT)
• Hi, Dean. I will try to research about making links on images. I will write more about the SI later. --Luis Diego 22:40, 5 August 2007 (PDT)

SI

Dean, I have looked at the SI pages and here is what I think you want on the PalmBox:
{{Palmbox

...
|si=mediterranean, subtropical
|zone=1A, 1B, 2A, 2B, 3A, 3B, 4A, 4B, 5A, 5B
}}

The PalmBox could automatically output:

Survibability Index

This is a semi-hardy palm.
<link>SSI Zone: 2A / The Queen Zone.</link>

Or:

Survibability Index

This is a temperate palm.
<link>MSI Zone: 3A / The Chamaedorea Zone.</link>
--Luis Diego 16:14, 6 August 2007 (PDT)

• Luis, I think you have misunderstood. I would simply like to be able to list the Zone number as a link in the Palmbox. For example, (and maybe we will re-name "hardiness" to 'Survival Index') but just be able to have it say MSI #2A and have it be a link to that page. I tried doing it for H. indica but it doesn't work like it does elsewhere on the wiki, because of template code I am guessing. Look at H. indica (I left it "broken") and I think you well understand what I am saying. In the SI each palm will have a page discussing the hardiness, etc. Eventually the link could take you directly to that page. Each palm will have a MSI (Med SI) number and a SSI (Sub SI) number. So in the box it would say --- Hardiness: MSI #2A, SSI #2B ---and both would be links to the respective page. It should prompt people to click around more within the wiki. I know this is not important for you or me since we live in tropical areas, but this is extrememly important data for everyone else, and is something that will get people to come to the site if we can make it worthwhile. There is still a lot of work to do there. I will try to get it better organized soon. Dypsisdean 17:11, 6 August 2007 (PDT)
• The .gif (image) linking was a different issue. That had to do with putting the weather icons in the box, but also relates to some other things I was trying to do as well. You would think the wiki software would have an easy way to make an image a link. Like I said, it's a well known limitation and there are supposedly some work arounds. Not of great importance at the moment, but an interesting concept. Dypsisdean 17:05, 6 August 2007 (PDT)
• Dean, I have finished to code the MSI an SSI integration. Try using it, and tell me if it is right that way. --Luis Diego 05:54, 7 August 2007 (PDT)
• Luis, I just took a quick look and it appears to be exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much. I will take a closer look later today, but it appears perfect. I hope you are not neglecting your school work to get these alterations done. :-) Dypsisdean 13:30, 7 August 2007 (PDT)
• You are welcome Dean. If any thing should be modified let me know. Don't worry I am not neglecting my school work :).

--Luis Diego 17:23, 8 August 2007 (PDT)

Continent

From the Palmbox info:

For the continent variable the only values that may be entered are: america, africa, asia, europe and oceania. If other value is entered the PalmBox will output the following message: "Please enter a valid name for a continent".

Is there any way of entering more than one continent? Some palms are native to two continents, e.g. Chamaerops humilis in SW Europe and NW Africa. Also, what about Phoenix canariensis? - it is native to no continent at all, just to oceanic islands (the Canary Islands); I've put 'Africa' for it as that is the closest continent, but that isn't strictly correct. 'Atlantic' would be better, but isn't available. - Phoenixcanariensis 02:46, January 31, 2010 (HST)